Political Chickens

Discussion in 'In the News' started by scotchbutter, Jun 8, 2016.

  1. scotchbutter

    scotchbutter Chicken

    I didn't want to just dump this in the Headlines thread since I assume there will be more election stuff coming/some people want to avoid this talk. Feel free to move it if there's a place already for it though.

    I'm really digging this article. Title: It’s time to admit Hillary Clinton is an extraordinarily talented politician

    My favorite parts:
    "If, as in this election, a man who spews hate and vulgarity, with no comprehension of how government works, can become presidentially plausible because he is magnetic while a capable, workaholic woman who knows policy inside and out struggles because she is not magnetic, perhaps we should reevaluate magnetism’s importance. It’s worth asking to what degree charisma, as we have defined it, is a masculine trait. Can a woman appeal to the country in the same way we are used to men doing it?"

    "It is not that no women possess a public magnetism; Sarah Palin could rock a room, and Elizabeth Warren can work a crowd. But the quality we adore in presidential candidates — the ability to stand up and speak loudly, confidently, and fluently on topics you may know nothing about — is gendered. Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders are both excellent yellers, and we love them for it. Nobody likes it when Hillary Clinton yells."

    "There is a narrative that has emerged in the Democratic primary, and it goes something like this: Hillary Clinton locked up the Democratic establishment long before the primary began in earnest...When Sanders's supporters argue that the election was rigged against their candidate, this is what they are talking about."

    "But another way to look at the primary is that Clinton employed a less masculine strategy to win. She won the Democratic primary by spending years slowly, assiduously, building relationships with the entire Democratic Party. She relied on a more traditionally female approach to leadership: creating coalitions, finding common ground, and winning over allies....This work is a grind — it's not big speeches, it doesn't come with wide applause, and it requires an emotional toughness most human beings can't summon."
    Tara, Old Waxy, SassyFowl and 3 others like this.
  2. whatchyagonnado

    whatchyagonnado Chicken

    Excellent article scotch. I was reading one earlier on the many problems with Bernie not conceding the nomination until the convention.

    What bothers me is he/his supporters whined about superdelegates early in the race. Now he wants the superdelegates to vote against the winner of the popular vote so he can win? Ridiculous. I'm also tired of hearing Bernie supporters on my facebook feed specifically (not trying to lump all supporters in) complain that if Bernie doesn't win then America deserves Trump.
    SassyFowl likes this.
  3. calicat

    calicat Queen of the Eggs

    Bernie voter checking in. I think it's time to admit that he will not be winning though I was hopeful and I was happy to see how close it was in CA and several other states versus what early numbers showed. At the very least it shows that a growing number of people want change and maybe we'll see a break from the two-party system (HA!)

    I also didn't vote for Bernie because "magnetism" or "charisma", but because I lived in Norway for a long time and I have seen and experienced a lot of what he wants to accomplish in practice and I truly think it's great when it works. So I personally believe he's a good politician and he does his best to accomplish what he says (see his history and reputation in VT) I will NOT vote for Trump just because he's loud and he speaks his mind which is what I think a lot of voters have done both for Trump and Sen. Sanders. That's not how I personally choose to vote, though I know several people who choose to vote that way because "it's refreshing" to see candidates who speak their mind, yadda, yadda.

    Clinton has wanted this for a long time, and while I do not agree with the way she does certain things, I'd rather see her in the White House than Trump.
    Tara and Avocado like this.
  4. allmaple

    allmaple Chicken

    If I could vote, I would have voted for Sanders. It is terrifying to me that Trump even made it this far. Remember when this whole mess started and everyone was all "LOL, as if!"? Can we go back to those days, please?
    Tara, Old Waxy, Erie and 4 others like this.
  5. scotchbutter

    scotchbutter Chicken

    @calicat I mean there are definitely good policy reasons to vote for Bernie. Not knocking that people like his platform or his political leanings. Like you said, you've lived in that kind of country before and know it's superior to what we've got going right now.

    But I do think there are a great number of people who are swept up in the excitement of Bernie because of his charisma. He's a great guy. I love to hear him speak. I would definitely vote for him for president if he were in the general. But like...I like this article because it expresses something I've been feeling for a long time. That 1) Even if Clinton had the same record/all the same stances as Sanders, I do not think she would get the swelling support that he does simply because she doesn't (can't?) command a stage like him. 2) A lot of people where I'm at (Texas) who feel the Bern, don't really know about the social programs, or what a functioning socialist nation looks like. They love his positions because they love HIM. And there's nothing necessarily wrong with that--people vote for the candidates they admire, candidates who move them. But I think that because it's harder to get that excited, hopeful feeling in your throat when Clinton speaks, because she lacks that magnetism/charisma that Sanders has, she loses support regardless of her qualifications.

    Basically, I think there is no doubt that if Clinton had the presence of Obama/Sanders/Bill Clinton/Elizabeth Warren, no one else would stand a chance.
    SassyFowl and calicat like this.
  6. A. Ham

    A. Ham Chicken

    I'm a Bernie supporter and it's definitely time for him to concede. California was the last hope, and we lost. It's too bad, but I agree exactly with what you're saying here: the superdelegates should vote the way the public did. It's not right to ask them to vote against Hillary even though the people voted for her.

    I shared this link on facebook and now there's a huge argument starting between one crazed Bernie fan (an old man who comments on literally everything I post) and like 4 other people, all against him. http://theslot.jezebel.com/girligue...source=jezebel_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow
    Quite frankly I'm relieved other people are arguing with him because he's the exact reason Bernie supporters aren't taken seriously in a lot of cases. It's time to be sensible.
    calicat likes this.
  7. Fitz

    Fitz Leslie Knope Monster

    Cali, I know you've been pulling for Bernie. I really admire him as well as Clinton, and it was a rough decision for me to decide who to vote for in our primary. I spent most of the night before going back and forth between your two web sites. I like a lot of his platform, and to be honest, apart from a few things, his policies aren't all that different from Clinton's. I would absolutely vote for him in the general if he was the nominee. I'm a proud Democrat and an unabashed liberal. And I really can't think of a worse person to lead this country than Trump, except maybe the head of the KKK.

    On the "free public higher education" thing, I really go back and forth. I spent a good deal of time in the UK university system, where it is clearly much cheaper (not free) to go to university. However, I worry that if we were to make this change in the US, it would create an even larger educational gap, similar to the gap between many private grade schools and the public school system.

    I've been listening to the Keepin it 1600 podcast, with two former Obama communications staffers (Jon Favreau and Dan Pfeiffer) and they have such great takes/analyses on this election (apart from them doubting Trump, but we all did). I think that Clinton's team needs to listen to them, they have some great ideas that could really work for her.
    nym711 and calicat like this.
  8. Afishwish

    Afishwish Bramblebutt

    I have to say while I like Bernie and think he seems like a decent human being (which I rarely think of politicians), the number denial coming from his supporters has been driving me bonkers. Polling numbers and reliable projections (aka Nate Silver who's always right) have shown for some time that Hillary would be the nominee.

    I'm actually glad he's stuck it out this long just because it's made Hillary sweat a bit and work for it more.
    SassyFowl and Canaligator like this.
  9. Afishwish

    Afishwish Bramblebutt

  10. NerdLady

    NerdLady Chicken

    Everything I read had Bernie as the nominee. I'm a Bernie fan and hoped he would win. I've been on the fence about Hilary, but I will take her over Trump.
    A. Ham likes this.
  11. Fitz

    Fitz Leslie Knope Monster

    I've just been so excited all day to have a WOMAN as the presumptive nominee. We've come a long way ladies. The rape thread shows how far we've left to go, but this is history in the making and I'm amped I get to experience it.
    Old Waxy, CoolWife, SassyFowl and 5 others like this.
  12. HBC

    HBC Chicken

    I've always been Anyone But Trump, and I see positives and negatives to both Clinton and Sanders.

    I get pretty misty eyed when I imagine a woman POTUS during the centennial year of women's suffrage though.
    Fitz, SassyFowl, Erie and 3 others like this.
  13. scotchbutter

    scotchbutter Chicken

    Re: misty eyes-earlier I read something where a woman said she was happy because her young daughter would never remember a world where a woman had never been a major party's presidential nominee. That growing up, it would not seem impossible to her that a woman could actually be president.
    CoolWife and SassyFowl like this.
  14. Honey

    Honey Historian Staff Member

    I liked a tweet I read earlier. A young woman posted that she's proud to be among the first generation that can say they've never voted for a white man for President.
  15. Canaligator

    Canaligator Barbie Police

    Damn, that's amazing.
  16. A. Ham

    A. Ham Chicken

    A lot of his supporters are turning into conspiracy theorists as we get further into the primaries being pretty much decided, and it's driving me nuts. Like yes, we like a candidate. It would have been awesome for someone with so many good ideas to become the president. But it's time to look at the big picture. The guy commenting on my status kept saying I'm voting for evil. Well, I don't know if either one is evil per se, but I think electing Trump would be the equivalent of electing a cranky toddler who hasn't taken his nap.

    I don't really get why people want a president you'd have a beer with.* W seemed like a gentleman, politics aside, and I still don't think he was good at his job. Her personality is, I suspect, partially the byproduct of trying to thrive as a woman in a male dominated field. I suspect that if she had a "nice" demeanor and personality, people would be calling her weak/too girly/etc.

    I am excited for this as well. I just wish she would stop mentioning it (nothing frustrated me more this primary than being told that if I'm a feminist I have to vote for the woman candidate) because I'm not going to use my vagina to decide who to vote for, I'm going to use my brain. (I'm still excited it's a woman. Don't get me wrong!)

    *that being said, if Barack and Michelle want to be friends with me after he's out of office and has time for a social life, my calendar is open.
    SassyFowl likes this.
  17. Erie

    Erie Florida AF

    Am I the only one who really didn't like listening to Bernie speak? He just seems so angry, all the time, like he's yelling at the audience. I got tired quickly of hearing him yell the same things over and over. (Not a comment on his overall run or policies, strictly speaking on the magnetism that was discussed earlier.)
  18. SassyFowl

    SassyFowl Chicken

    A. Ham likes this.
  19. SassyFowl

    SassyFowl Chicken

    I got tired of some of Bernie's more dogged supporters before I got tired of Bernie. Now I'm tired of both and I'm really not looking forward to the bullshit misogyny that's going to swell up in the general election. I'm mostly just tired, though. I need a nap.
    Afishwish and Fitz like this.
  20. scotchbutter

    scotchbutter Chicken

    I have several Bernie Or Bust FB friends who have stated they will be writing in Bernie in the general. We're in Texas, so in all honesty the GOP will win our state and whichever non-Republican we vote for doesn't really matter. (I definitely think voting matters, but for now rationally I know the democrats will not win Texas.) I'm pissy about it because I think it's so cocky/privileged to be all "my personal ethics outweigh" when we're facing a GOP candidate whose policies (I believe) will actually harm a lot of people.
    I liked this article from a few months ago:
    "How privileged do you need to be to imagine that it’s a good idea to risk the actual lives of vulnerable Americans because you “hate” Clinton so much that you vow to stay home if Sanders doesn’t get the nomination? How protected from the consequences of a Trump presidency do you need to be to think your hatred of Clinton constitutes, as I saw someone say earlier this week, an “inviolable principle,” meaning that it’s more important than the lives of vulnerable Americans?"
    "Vote for whoever you like in the primary. But let’s step away from vicious attacks and hatred. Let’s step away from buying into debunked conservative propaganda about Clinton’s trustworthiness. Let’s look at the candidates’ actual proposals and weigh those proposals’ actual strengths and weaknesses. Let’s respect each other’s choices in the primaries."
    Erie, A. Ham, Afishwish and 3 others like this.
  21. Zoomzoom

    Zoomzoom Old Curmudgeon

    As a Canadian I honestly haven't been paying much attention to Clinton or Sanders because either of them has always looked better than Trump or Cruz. You can elect a talking mouse so long as it means Trump & Cruz never win a presidency. I do get pissy whenever a friend of mine refers to Clinton as a bitch though.

    @scotchbutter There's a thread on the Bee where the write ins have come up as well. While usually I'd agree that you should vote for who you truly want, I think the States (and its allies) are better off with the "Anyone but Trump" strategy.
  22. Canaligator

    Canaligator Barbie Police

    @scotchbutter I was just having that conversation with a friend of mine at lunch yesterday. How fucking privileged do you have to be to be like, "I don't care if Trump wins, I'm standing for my principles! Let it all burn for four years!"
    Erie, Afishwish, A. Ham and 4 others like this.
  23. NerdLady

    NerdLady Chicken

    Luckily, I haven't seen any Bernie or Bust supporters. I'd like to think that the few people I talk politics with have some common sense. One of my friends did ask if I thought there was any point in writing Bernie in come election time and I don't really think so. I'm in Alabama, so of course it's going to go to the GOP here.
  24. scotchbutter

    scotchbutter Chicken

    Oh, that shit's all over my FB. It was actually pretty funny the other day I caught two of my FB friends who don't know each other arguing on some other person's political post. It was basically this same discussion: Balls to the wall Bernie or Bust vs. rational Clinton supporter who would have supported Sanders if he got the nomination. I said nothing because the thread was headed for crazytown. I think if I were a Sanders supporter I would be pissed at how bad some of the Sanders supporters are making the movement look.
    nym711 and SassyFowl like this.
  25. A. Ham

    A. Ham Chicken

    I think it's a really good point about privilege and Bernie or bust. And yes, it's embarrassing to be a Sanders supporter because of those people. Like we don't need a Ralph Nader in this election.

    I am sick of listening to each and every one of them speak at this point.
    SassyFowl likes this.